It makes no sense to make the devices so thin and then having a fat camera. This requires a cover to equalize the size with the camera for haptic reasons. Better use this space for other stuff like larger batteries and make the device the same thickness everywhere.
I would assume, however, that they didn't "fake" it - that they instead chose a filming position and lens such that camera was obscured behind the edge of the device (the edge facing the viewer is the far side from the camera). Bit of trickery for sure though.
> I would assume, however, that they didn't "fake" it - that they instead chose a filming position and lens such that camera was obscured behind the edge of the device
I’d suspect the same. From that angle, the camera bump is on the opposite edge; when I hold my iPad Air in the same position, the camera bump is also just about hidden.
That being said, I’d also suspect that Apple chose that angle deliberately.
I presume it is a flattering angle instead of a falsified image. The camera bump is near the one large button, which was furthest from the camera when they rotate it, so the iPad could have been angled slightly to hide the bump. Maybe someone can try to reproduce it after it comes out to see if it is a false image.
> In reality the back was curved, and they took pictures from an angle that only showed off the edge of the screen and not how far back it curved
You only see the thickness at the back from an angle where you can't actually use the computer (and for many people, that whole angle is going to be against the wall). This is the good kind of design - making something appear beautiful without compromising the core function.
I'm distinctly less convinced about ever-thinner mobile devices that I immediately have to slap a case on...
The argument is most people use a case regardless, so if it were the same thickness across the device, the iPad would be considerably thicker once in a case. That and weight. I don’t use cases so it bothers me too, but it does make some sense.
It's still very strange how much work goes into the materials for the case and the ergonomics and weight of holding the devices without a case just to assume everyone will put it in a case. I'm with you on iPads, they get too heavy/thick for their primary uses once in a case. The phones I sort of get but I still think it ruins a lot of the aesthetic choices they make about the case design.
I find it annoying too, I assume it's because thin and light devices sell more (both in promo photos and when used in Apple stores).
My mum's Samsung S23 Ultra has a ridiculous camera bump and rocks back and forth when you use it, even with some thinner cases. You need a super thick case for it to stay stable.
I have a hard time believing the camera bump isn't the result of intensive consumer psychology experiments. Setting a bare apple device down on a flat surface feels like chair with a leg sawed off. They need you to buy the accessories. This is part of making the ecosystem viable.
The correct answer. The camera bump is intentional and so is building phones that aren't resilient to drops out of the box. What do you mean I can't have a phone with rubber bumpers on the corners?
Half the time their mid-year fresh is just a new color, with a huge marketing push. If everyone has a case, colors become a moot point.
I also don’t think I’ve ever seen an Apple exec use a case, as it would imply the phones are durable and a case is needed, which they don’t want to convey. (Bumpers for antenna-gate aside)
Since basically everybody uses a case anyways, the important factors are weight and width with the case on. This design makes both of those significantly smaller than your suggestion.
Tangentially related: this is the funniest rant about this "devices with a fat camera bump that don't lay flat" rant that exists: "Why?" - Lazy Posy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP7lYuyGTmg
If they levelled it out you could surely fit a far larger battery in it too. I'd far rather have a device 1.5mm thicker with a battery lifespan twice as long and no silly bump on it.
To be fair, the iPad mini is a way better form-factor for camera use than any of the big iPads. I think the only time I've ever used the rear camera on the 12" iPad was to scan a document...
WAT. Just because you do not does not mean you get to dictate how others can use it. I know lots of people that use the rear camera on iPads. I'm one of them.
Not sure about the iPad Mini, but I've really only seen the bigger iPads with a case. There's just so much screen to damage, and you do really want some kind of way to prop up the bigger iPads. I very rarely remove my iPad Pro from its keyboard case.
Yeah it's infuriating. I love how even Apple are embarrassed by it, since in the first two animations of people holding and rotating the device they've left off the camera bump, making it look smooth flat.
But don't you just need a big camera on your giant tablet? How will you ever manage if you don't have a nice camera on both sides of all your handheld devices? /s
If they put the tiny "front-facing" camera pointed out the back it would be enough for the vast majority of people I imagine.
That's the thing - I genuinely don't understand the user or usage Venn diagram : when and who will 1. Have an expensive ipad with them and require a good big camera, but 2. Not have an equivalently competent phone with them?
Don't get me wrong, I understand it happens - back when I did wedding photography, one of my massive pet peeves were the uncles and grandparents who stepped into the aisle with their massive tablets just as bride is starting her walk... But I do not understand it at all :-/.
I'd absolutely happily completely kill the rear facing tablet camera. I've had at least a dozen android and ipad tablets and I genuinely don't think I took a single photo with them - it'd feel weird and awkward and so ostentious.
(As always as a consumer, clearly I'm in minority here :-})
When I use the rear camera, it's part of a feature of some other app that clearly makes sense to use as a tablet. You're bogged down as it being used as a primary camera as a photographer. There are other needs for cameras other than portraits. Using the rear camera in an AR mode is quite handy in apps.
Apple: Just fix the software. I have an iPad Mini (6?) and it's clearly just such an orphaned product. They're not even TRYING to make it usable. The on-screen keyboard takes up the majority of the screen when in landscape mode. In portrait mode, the "drawer" on the left side of the screen takes up so much space in apps like Maps/Flighty that it covers the location you're currently at.
They've clearly given almost no thought into how the (already marginal) iPadOS renders on a smaller screen.
What isn't smooth is the separation between the iPad and iPhone teams. I'm pretty sure new things being visited on the Duo such as the split keyboard interface have already been tried on the iPad side.
It's especially bad if you're non-American with multiple TVs.
e.g. I've got three screens in my house (office TV, living room TV, basement projector) in Canada — upgrading to the latest Apple TV on each of them would cost me $1,287.
I have two televisions - living room TV with an AppleTV and bedroom TV with some Roku device. I'm going to buy the new AppleTV and put it in the living room, then move that AppleTV to the bedroom, then recycle the Roku (finally, I hate that thing).
It should be less expensive but I rely on it (cancelled cable TV and just have streaming now) and so I'm just happy they are still working on it.
I would happily give up on the entire AI industry in exchange for more affordable hardware. No hesitation. The worldwide inflation resulting from the AI rollout is shameful to say it politely
I've thought a lot about that actually. I have a number of hardware purchases I'd like to make but I'm delaying due to the insane prices. That said, would I give up LLMs for the prior prices? No. Prices will come down eventually once more factories come online (it's just slow to bring up a new factory/fab, especially for RAM) and LLMs are such an awesome tool that I'll take the short-term pain of higher hardware.
That’s if you’re considering your personal situation. The increase in hardware is impacting every single institution that needs computers. Smaller hardware companies with low margins cannot operate in the current situation. That means less consumer choices, new projects delayed or cancelled. The impact on less developed countries is of course exacerbated. Hospitals, schools, government agencies are getting less for the same level of spending. And of course that results in worst services, worst infrastructure, more expensive services and goods
Hopefully as Apple's own N-series Wifi chips mature and get rolled into more products, they will include GPS/GNSS capabilities into the chips, as right now if you want that functionality you have to purchase the "Wi-Fi + Cellular" variant:
Edit: to perhaps make it more clear, I meant still sell a +Cellular variant with the C-series chips (or whatever), but move the GNSS functionality into the N-series chips. So you'd have a non-cellular and a cellular, but both would have GNSS.
It's part of it. Another part of the reason is patent related royalties that they have to pay to the likes of Qualcomm, Nokia, etc. for any device that has a working 5G stack inside of it. Apple actually has had their own 5G modem implementation for a few years now; they clearly have the technology to deliver this with a clean full in house chip design.
But any device that has that embedded would have some royalty overhead added to the BOM. Which is why they've always had ipads with and without 5G and have so far never really bothered with adding this on laptops (which actually would make a lot of sense from a technical point of view). Operators would probably love that because it's a nice up-sell opportunity on monthly subscriptions. And with soft sims there would not be a need for a hardware sim card.
For the same reason, you don't see this feature on many other laptops either. There are a few obviously but it's a less common feature than you'd expect given how important good connectivity is to most laptop users.
So the reason they have not released a +cellular MBP is down to them not wanting to make royalty payments? What do they care? They just roll that payment into the +cellular price bump. It's not like they are dipping into their own billion dollar cash on hand balance.
Do you have a better reason? I think the price difference is probably too high to justify the feature. I don't see any technical reason why they wouldn't do this. But patent royalties and additional overhead related to device certification would definitely add some complexity and cost.
No, but there's a lot of examples of "I don't have a better reason" regarding Apple decisions. I know that there's a lot of bad blood between Apple and Nvidia hence AMD GPUs every where before the M-series chips. Clearly, they are tired of of their cellular vendors, otherwise they would not have developed their own chips. But they already have the cellular relation for the iPhone/iPads, so what would extending that to allow MBP inclusion mean that makes it a non-starter for Apple?
> The buyer is also signing up for a monthly payment. So clearly they have the cash to make an “extra monthly payment” or two up front.
I know of pilots who buy the +Cellular simply for GNSS and do not get a separate plan.
Charging more for the C-series hardware is understandable, but if there's enough of a 'transistor budget' it would be nice for the GNSS functionality to be more universal (since the N-series seems to be going into everything).
Last iPad Mini I bought in 2015 was 32gb for $379CAD, one today 11 years later is $949CAD for 128gb, 2.5x over 10 years, I know there is different tech, inflation and times are different but I always though the mini as the budget option, now with this recent releases Apple is just going for: it's expensive because that's the only way we can keep growing....
The mini is not the budget option, at least not anymore. The base 11" iPad starts at $450 in the US (and can often be found on sale for less). It is the cost-down with lower-spec components, and is probably a more compelling product for the consumer looking for the cheapest iPad option than a cost-down mini would be.
I wish this was somehow listed as a separate line item with the price, assuming prices will normalize at some point. I don’t want these prices to be considered the new normal, even after memory prices come down. I think transparency in the pricing would help with that.
Their budget iPad I think got 70% increased in price a couple of months ago. I was planning to upgrade my iPad mini to the normal 11inch iPad and when I checked the price it was nowhere near the price I remembered I last saw it.
There is an entire field of study dedicated to this sort of thing called Psychophysics. It’s hardly trivial. Perception isn’t an absolute measure of sensory input as it’s influenced by context, comparison, as well as prior experience. Improvements in one experience can change the standards by which we judge subsequent ones. These principles have had profound implications across entire industries. A good primer is the book Priceless: the hidden psychology of value by Poundstone.
It's not a trivial feature. The Class A surface on an iPad is the screen.
If you plan to look at moving things, like scrolling, which is a central part of using the device, 120fps makes the scrolling less blurry and therefore more pleasant to look at.
This is like asking why people have a hardon for cars with nicer materials for seats and interiors if a normal cheap plastic interior could pass all the same crash tests.
The only genuine performance increase I could see is if you're using it for drawing/notes because the Apple Pencil samples at 240/s so you would see a difference in drawing smoothness between 60/120/240hz screens. This would mirror the use case in fast-paced and high action games - more info for your eyes sooner allowing better reaction times.
Also, isn't ProMotion just branded VRR? Allowing for lower battery use in static/low change applications?
That's a problem already solved by having a lower refresh rate, though. You can't get extra battery drain from 120hz when your device can only achieve 60hz.
It is a real thing. If you experienced the shift from CRT to the first generation of LCD screens and the CRT bros are not moving to the new technology because it gives them headaches and the majority of people are OK with the refresh rates. The 60fps to 120fps perception is hard to explain.
you don't need promotion if you're going to use it for movies, but OLED is a huge improvement in this regard.
the price is a bit high, but that's all apple products.
i do think this means a lot of android tablets on this form factor are going to start coming out with OLED screens as well though, which is good, as they will be much cheaper.
I think the Mini's primary use case that benefits a 120hz screen is art apps, but the artists I know would prefer OLED over 120hz. For entertainment, video is video, and games on tablets often lock to 30 by default to preserve battery life.
For the iPad Air (especially the 13" model!) I agree 100%.
Apple likes to slow roll features out. It's kind of a necessity when Wall Street expects you to put out a desirable hardware version every few years. Gotta protect that runway!
I'm shocked Apple haven't acquired Procreate yet. It's nearly always in iPad marketing material. Personally I know so many artists who've bought iPads, and the only app they have installed is Procreate.
It’s possible they simply don’t want to sell. ProCreate parent company is extremely successful on its own, it’s possible being part of Apple wouldn’t bring anything to the table for them. Looking at some apps Apple acquired it’s not clear that being part of a mega corporation benefits creative tools.
The homeview is DOA, I'm sorry. Who is the target for this?
There is no app store. I mean maybe they will add one later, but still until that happens I really dont see any use case besides setting some kitchen timers.
Yes, smart home is a thing, but tons of people need apps like Hue or Shelly to control their setup.
I don’t see homeview being worth it unless they allow app installs. $300 for a display that shows photos and smart home controls is kinda pointless. You can’t even put up your home assistant dashboard on it.
I think there will be be app integration, but hopefully no App Store. We know that apps can work on HomeView using CarPlay. Not sure that is sufficient long term, perhaps just to jump start things. They may need to enhance that library to allow more kinds of apps to work with HomeView.
Right now, I think they are bringing out an MVP and waiting to see how people react to it and what kinds of things turn out to be useful. When they launched the Watch, no one was sure what kinds of things we would want to do on it. It took a while to see what was useful. I think a model where apps on your phone provide HomeView widgets like the Watch might be better than writing apps specifically for such a device.
Sure, but it’s weird to consider a device to be good value when the reason for that value is features you hope will launch in future updates maybe years down the line.
How would an OLED screen be an improvement over an ipad 8th generation? I'm debating on what to upgrade to but I mainly use my ipad for reading comics nowadays. Movies/TV are for the big screen.
And furthermore Apple’s OLED screens tend to have more color reproduction issues. I don’t have an iPad any more but gather a group of people using OLED iPhones. Use light mode and open the Settings app at the same time. You will see that different OLED screens render the same white menu items differently. Some will have a yellowish tint, others an unpleasant green tint. This happens regardless of whether one turns on or off TrueTone. This has been going on since the very first OLED iPhones. The old LCD iPhones never had this problem. It is highly subjective but it bothers me way more than a 60Hz refresh rate.
In general display technologies are highly subjective. Besides LCD versus OLED, there are people who love nano texture and there are people who hate them. There are people who absolutely need 120Hz and there are people who can’t tell the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz. It’s a shame that we can’t customize the display technology exactly as we want.
I own no iPads but all my screens are OLED and I would never buy anything else. The true black is an absolute killer feature. It makes the device just a glowing wonder at night, magical feeling, no way to overstate it.
OLED + dark mode after sundown are awesome. On Android we also get the extra dim mode which makes it perfect for lights-out.
I use GrapheneOS on my Pixel and it gets very dim. Also, I have the night mode (orange tint) cranked way up - something that the stock OS should allow you to do.
OLED is really good for media consumption, and IMO, this form factor is one of the best for carrying around in trips and watching movies on the car/plane/train/etc.
But the price is a bit high, that's the history of Apple though. On the other hand, I think this particular screen is probably going to be sourced by cheaper small android tablets at a much more competitive price, and if you're using it for media consumption, there's no difference between an Apple and an Android tablet.
Do there exist any good small Android tablets at a reasonable price?
There were none available in Canada with cellular when I looked a few years ago so I ended up buying an African-region Galaxy Tab A9 for $170. It's functional, but by God is it slow, and that's after adb-removing about 50 pieces of Samsung bloat.
This is a disappointment. Apple has so much potential with iPad minis, but they consistently hold back simply because they don’t want to cannibalize their pro models.
That's the whole iPad line. No multi-user because they don't want families to buy only one iPad, no support for running apps outside of the app store, etc.
Ok, how is this a disappointment - what does it not have that the pro does that you're seeking? To me, this just looks like a large phone without cellular. Not sure I'd want this, as I already have a large phone - good enough.
I would assume, however, that they didn't "fake" it - that they instead chose a filming position and lens such that camera was obscured behind the edge of the device (the edge facing the viewer is the far side from the camera). Bit of trickery for sure though.
from this page: https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/
I’d suspect the same. From that angle, the camera bump is on the opposite edge; when I hold my iPad Air in the same position, the camera bump is also just about hidden.
That being said, I’d also suspect that Apple chose that angle deliberately.
A minimal camera bump means they've advanced the technology to make it small, but no camera bump makes it look like they're using a cheaper camera?
In reality the back was curved, and they took pictures from an angle that only showed off the edge of the screen and not how far back it curved
You only see the thickness at the back from an angle where you can't actually use the computer (and for many people, that whole angle is going to be against the wall). This is the good kind of design - making something appear beautiful without compromising the core function.
I'm distinctly less convinced about ever-thinner mobile devices that I immediately have to slap a case on...
My mum's Samsung S23 Ultra has a ridiculous camera bump and rocks back and forth when you use it, even with some thinner cases. You need a super thick case for it to stay stable.
Also my favorite smartphone was a motorola with a cloth back (ballistic something) and a metal frame. No cover was needed for this one.
I also don’t think I’ve ever seen an Apple exec use a case, as it would imply the phones are durable and a case is needed, which they don’t want to convey. (Bumpers for antenna-gate aside)
Not really! The cover just follows the seam. And larger batteries will increase the weight as well, which Apple definitely doesn't want.
No one attempted to dictate anything. They expressed an opinion. HN is a discussion forum. This is exactly what it’s for.
Your point would look stronger if you had only included your last two sentences without the indignation of the first two.
That is not expressing of an opinion but dictating an action. "I think they should get rid of it entirely..." would be the expressing of an opinion.
thermals.
Though I do hate that bump. I just tried a duo and the bump makes it awkward to hold as a tablet
If they put the tiny "front-facing" camera pointed out the back it would be enough for the vast majority of people I imagine.
Don't get me wrong, I understand it happens - back when I did wedding photography, one of my massive pet peeves were the uncles and grandparents who stepped into the aisle with their massive tablets just as bride is starting her walk... But I do not understand it at all :-/.
I'd absolutely happily completely kill the rear facing tablet camera. I've had at least a dozen android and ipad tablets and I genuinely don't think I took a single photo with them - it'd feel weird and awkward and so ostentious.
(As always as a consumer, clearly I'm in minority here :-})
They've clearly given almost no thought into how the (already marginal) iPadOS renders on a smaller screen.
The iPad Mini started with a 7.9" screen, bumped today to 8.5".
The iPhone Duo inner display is 7.6", there are already rumors saying a gen 2 or gen 3 might be 7.9".
It's interesting how smooth the iPhone/iPad continuum is becoming.
Quick look at the Mini dimensions also seems like it barely got bigger overall since 1st gen.
when he goes "iphone small (big)" "iphone big (bigger)" and so on. He has a bunch of them.
These prices are insane and there is no sign of things slowing down.
e.g. I've got three screens in my house (office TV, living room TV, basement projector) in Canada — upgrading to the latest Apple TV on each of them would cost me $1,287.
It should be less expensive but I rely on it (cancelled cable TV and just have streaming now) and so I'm just happy they are still working on it.
* https://www.apple.com/ipad-mini/specs/ § Location
Edit: to perhaps make it more clear, I meant still sell a +Cellular variant with the C-series chips (or whatever), but move the GNSS functionality into the N-series chips. So you'd have a non-cellular and a cellular, but both would have GNSS.
The buyer is also signing up for a monthly payment. So clearly they have the cash to make an “extra monthly payment” or two up front.
But any device that has that embedded would have some royalty overhead added to the BOM. Which is why they've always had ipads with and without 5G and have so far never really bothered with adding this on laptops (which actually would make a lot of sense from a technical point of view). Operators would probably love that because it's a nice up-sell opportunity on monthly subscriptions. And with soft sims there would not be a need for a hardware sim card.
For the same reason, you don't see this feature on many other laptops either. There are a few obviously but it's a less common feature than you'd expect given how important good connectivity is to most laptop users.
The C3 modem is just around the corner though, as is the satellite network Globalstar's been building behind the scenes for it.
https://investors.globalstar.com/news-releases/news-release-...
It's now live and on-air for testing...
I know of pilots who buy the +Cellular simply for GNSS and do not get a separate plan.
Charging more for the C-series hardware is understandable, but if there's enough of a 'transistor budget' it would be nice for the GNSS functionality to be more universal (since the N-series seems to be going into everything).
The iPad mini hasn’t been the budget iPad for quite a few years now. It is more like a small iPad Air now.
Keeping up appearances:
Lease from $14.99/mo. per month for 36 mo.months with Apple Upgrade Footnote ※
Check Porsche 911 / Boxster pricing in Canada over those years or Chanel bags
Luxury inflation > normal inflation
The iPad is not the only device that has had price increases in the last year.
non-starter
This isn't even a "people dont see that fast".
It just, it seems more like a perceptual addiction to a trivial feature. A penis measuring contest more than a useful advancement of technology.
If you plan to look at moving things, like scrolling, which is a central part of using the device, 120fps makes the scrolling less blurry and therefore more pleasant to look at.
This is like asking why people have a hardon for cars with nicer materials for seats and interiors if a normal cheap plastic interior could pass all the same crash tests.
It’s a penis measuring contest for display enthusiasts, much like gold connectors are for audio enthusiasts.
The only genuine performance increase I could see is if you're using it for drawing/notes because the Apple Pencil samples at 240/s so you would see a difference in drawing smoothness between 60/120/240hz screens. This would mirror the use case in fast-paced and high action games - more info for your eyes sooner allowing better reaction times.
Also, isn't ProMotion just branded VRR? Allowing for lower battery use in static/low change applications?
the price is a bit high, but that's all apple products.
i do think this means a lot of android tablets on this form factor are going to start coming out with OLED screens as well though, which is good, as they will be much cheaper.
For the iPad Air (especially the 13" model!) I agree 100%.
The homeview at $299 is the great value Apple product by far, compared to the price of new iPads
The 512 nano texture iPad mini with a case and pencil and Apple care and tax and tip in Canada is well over $2000!!!
There is no app store. I mean maybe they will add one later, but still until that happens I really dont see any use case besides setting some kitchen timers.
Yes, smart home is a thing, but tons of people need apps like Hue or Shelly to control their setup.
Right now, I think they are bringing out an MVP and waiting to see how people react to it and what kinds of things turn out to be useful. When they launched the Watch, no one was sure what kinds of things we would want to do on it. It took a while to see what was useful. I think a model where apps on your phone provide HomeView widgets like the Watch might be better than writing apps specifically for such a device.
Luckily I didn’t buy a iPad Mini, but I really like the form factor.
However, whether you really notice a difference reading on the thing I kinda doubt.
In general display technologies are highly subjective. Besides LCD versus OLED, there are people who love nano texture and there are people who hate them. There are people who absolutely need 120Hz and there are people who can’t tell the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz. It’s a shame that we can’t customize the display technology exactly as we want.
OLED + dark mode after sundown are awesome. On Android we also get the extra dim mode which makes it perfect for lights-out.
But the price is a bit high, that's the history of Apple though. On the other hand, I think this particular screen is probably going to be sourced by cheaper small android tablets at a much more competitive price, and if you're using it for media consumption, there's no difference between an Apple and an Android tablet.
So I'm happy to see OLED on this model.
It would be great if it can use fingerprint to unlock different profiles.
I want to upgrade my old Mini 5 with Lightning since I want one with USB-C, and the OS is getting slower and slower, but at these prices?
All I do is read websites and watch Youtube on it anyway, so maybe I'll just get an Android Tablet for 300 €.
This is getting ridiculous!
There were none available in Canada with cellular when I looked a few years ago so I ended up buying an African-region Galaxy Tab A9 for $170. It's functional, but by God is it slow, and that's after adb-removing about 50 pieces of Samsung bloat.
I was considering buying one, but will skip until the older model becomes unsupported or when Apple adds Face ID.
Some more discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50243061
lol, no, thanks